(no subject)

[nerdflighter]

extremely frustrated because I have like, a lot of questions about aave and its usage but I don't know who to ask


1. wouldn't it be easier to focus on removing the stigma around black people using aave than trying to get white people to stop using it?

2. why does so much of the activism I see on tumblr around aave basically boil down to ‘you can use it if you aren't black, just feel extremely bad about it’?

3. I've also seen black people say ‘nonblack people shouldn't use aave because they're almost always grammatically incorrect but that assumes that all black people speak grammatically correct aave, which surely isn't true, but that's not CA somehow, and that nonblack people are incapable of speaking grammatically correct aave. it also worries me because we don't enforce standards of correct grammar on any other language, because we understand that there's a lot standing between someone and 100% perfect grammar. like, we (as progressives) apply that to English, but not to aave. how does that work?

4. bearing in mind that aave is inextricable from internet culture at this point, and also that I don't want to feel bad about using it, how can I use it while being respectful of black people and black communities?


I want to ask someone these questions, but I don't want anyone to feel pressured to reply to them. I'm not actually owed a conversation about this but I'd desperately like to have one, and I also don't know how to go about doing that.

Comments

[codex8]

It's only one perspective, but I can see if my partner (they're black, I'm not) would be willing to run thru these questions and give me some answers I can pass on to you. One person's opinion won't be enough to make up your mind, but it might help find somewhere to start. I think, from my past conversations with them over the years, I can already see some places where they may have thoughts about how you're looking at this.

[nerdflighter]

I would really appreciate that!

[codex8]

I gave them the list of questions and they'll look it over and give me their responses to pass back to you. Would you prefer I respond publicly here or some other way?

[queermermaids]

Hi I'm black and I'll try to answer this to the best of my ability :)

1. Yes, definitely. AAVE is a dialect that morphs and changes throughout the united states. I know mine sounds different than my brother because even though we both grew up in California he moved to Louisiana and went to an HBCU, while I stayed and went to a majority white college. Removing the stigma is more important that trying to simplify a dialect of a language that is characterized by its fluidity and change to try and stop others from using it.

2. Yeah a lot of internet race politics have immense problems with scrupulousness, either using it as a tactic (you need to feel guilty for everything, ever) or ignoring people who have problems with it (if you feel guilty you are just selfish). If someone takes the time to notice a nonblack person using AAVE then that person is probably saying it wrong, or if its on tumblr and they are arguing, they have decided to nitpick at the language and not the content/argument.

They shouldn't feel guilty for using a phrase they picked up from twitter, they should use it right, and maybe learn where it comes from, but its language, unlike Disney you cannot trademark a language. There are so many things I realized I say because I heard my brothers friends say it in New Orleans, and maybe like 15 year old me who listened to tumblr for everything would feel guilty and appropriative for coming back to Cali and introducing it to my friend group, but I've stopped feeling that way because legit its just words who cares!

3. I think that's a very bad take. The entire construct of correct grammer gatekeeps AAVE already. I really cannot with the absolute ignorance someone must have about AAVE and the crushing of legitimate forms of english by racist education. If people think applying rules doesn't also apply stigma then they just plain ignorant of classism and race when it comes to the education system in the united states.

4. When I think of AAVE, I think of all my very lovely but very uneducated friends in high school. People would learn shit online and use it wrong, on posters or in the lunch room or walking to class, and I would lean over and say to my friends "just fyi that's not how you say that".

For folks online who are not black, I think learning new things online is great and I hope they have fun with a dialect that has developed due to a hard and continuing history of oppression. I want them to not feel guilty for gaining new things online, and I also want them to know its history, who made that first vine, why can't this apply to this context, etc. Removing the stigma is important and enjoying the beauty that is internet culture and its multitude of subcultures is also important.

(Feel free to ask any questions, I really hope this was helpful!!!)

[nerdflighter]

it really was incredibly helpful! and it makes so much more sense than any other take I've seen on the matter, honestly.

re #3 I heard that take on tumblr from user erikkillmongerdontpullout, who I have problems with for other reasons (not least that they called me a pedophile over my minors with sexualities tag) and it frustrated the fuck out of me so thank you for clearing it up!

[queermermaids]

no problem!! glad to help :)

also same hat, I don't remember their previous url but that same blogger once called me a Nazi for being a Tony Stark stan, you are definitely not alone when it comes to attacks from that person.

[nerdflighter]

nazi.....for being a tony stark stan.....what the Fuck
(do I wanna know?)

[queermermaids]

not really no, I think this post explains it the best its just fandom wank superimposed with misplaced activism, very very annoying.

[nerdflighter]

.........dfgkjhdfkgjdghf im going to die what the fuck marvel fandom


although no hate @ steve stans but theyre kinda insufferable when they come up w shit like this

[queermermaids]

*nods aggressively* yes! you are completely correct and not wrong

[hellofriendsiminthedark]

I'm not black, but it's my understanding that AAE (it's been a trend for many years now to drop the V because there's nothing inherently vernacular about non-standard English other than that they and their speakers don't get taken seriously the way the standard does) refers to a specific brand of black American English, rather than being a collection of all black American Englishes/being a singular black American English which is universally spoken by black Americans. Specifically, AAE is urban... southern? Atlanta-ish? And while other black communities from other regions of the US do have non-standard English ethnolects, they're not all AAE and therefore don't all follow the grammar of AAE as it's been mapped by linguists. Like there were some interesting discussions when "hella" became popular (as in "hella gay," "hella cool," etc), because people called out appropriation of AAE (in the same vein as "on fleek"), but it turns out "hella" was a Jersey thing.

As a general rule across quite a lot of history, culture is produced within the margins of society and travels up the respectability chain of command until it becomes mainstream. The words we attribute to Shakespeare were actually already very commonly in use at the time by housewives and women, but Shakespeare was the first to professionally utilize them. Likewise, a lot of production of American culture happens in urban black spaces, which are also occupied by urban white people and black queer people who also have claims to regional culture. From there, black culture has an avenue to move into white spaces and non-black queer spaces, where they're more readily adopted into non-black, non-poor, non-queer culture.

A lot of measured responses to cultural appropriation discourse will tell you that the sharing of culture isn't in and of itself bad, and that adoption of trends is inevitable, and that the most important things are context/mutual respect/information. There is a lot of reactionary black activism which pushes scrupulosity and lashes out indiscriminately against anyone and everyone... but I think also there are sometimes miscommunications wherein a message like "if you would have made fun of a black person saying 'on fleek' before it was cool, you shouldn't say 'on fleek' now" gets butchered by the "everything is injustice, we must preserve our culture" crowd/misunderstood by the "I'm a scrupulous ally" crowd into "no one should say 'on fleek' unless they're black." And obviously, the first iteration of the message raises the point that there's something to be said about how many facets of blackness aren't acceptable until they're appropriated by more respectable classes! Which is the whole point of discussions about AAE- and black culture-related appropriation!